The R.I.P Thread
08-04-2013, 03:41 PM
Then raise the scarlet standard high,
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
100 years from now, it will not matter what kind of car I drove, what kind of house I lived in, how much money I had in my bank account, nor what my clothes looked like; but the world may be a little better because I was important in the life of a child.
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09-04-2013, 12:47 PM
I say we should revert back to 1978/79 and happy memories of rubbish filled streets, Green Goddesses, train strikes, lorry driver strikes, power cuts...need I go on?
Trying to build a successful team, Berwick by Berwick
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09-04-2013, 12:59 PM
Fancy fighting for a fair deal rather than failed privatization and doomed capitalism.
100 years from now, it will not matter what kind of car I drove, what kind of house I lived in, how much money I had in my bank account, nor what my clothes looked like; but the world may be a little better because I was important in the life of a child.
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09-04-2013, 01:40 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...715&type=1

Interesting read
Trying to build a successful team, Berwick by Berwick
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09-04-2013, 04:05 PM
Ken - to imply that Thatch and her policies was the only alternative to that is like stating that Hitler was good for Germany in 1933 because the country was in the shitter and only he could get it out. First part is definitely true, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the 'solution' was the best one possible either.

All it means is conditions were ideal for a complete cunt to take over. Yes she did some things which had the desired - even desirable - effect, although it's still arguable about whether her policies made things better or merely differently screwed, but the social and societal implications of her methods have been profoundly damaging to British society, business and politics for generations and that will be her true legacy.

English middle-class apologists who were probably barely touched by, or even benefited from her policies notwithstanding.


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09-04-2013, 04:13 PM
Please don't think that I'm some labour/socialist/liberal/green flag waver either. All of them are cunts. Politicians are among the most vile human beings on the planet, their very desire for power is precisely why they should be forever denied it.

Thatch was just a bigger cunt than most and I guess that's why some admire her.

Edit: If you're wondering where I stand on the political spectrum in light of the above statement re: politicians - I'm in the 'rip it up and start again' camp, I think.

Edit2: Also might be worth explaining that I was very politically active during the mid to late 80s, taking part in collective efforts to counteract Thatcher's polices effects on actual real people (lots of stuff, mostly small, mostly perfectly legal, but occasionally a bit radical and perhaps technically outside the law too), and went up to London and took part in the Poll Tax march. And saw first hand how she used the police as a way to strong arm and attempt to discredit a perfectly peaceful demonstration. The riots that day were started by a police horse charge on a street of people who had nowhere to go. I saw it happen. Until then there was nothing. Not a hint of trouble all the way to Trafalgar Square. All those hours it took all those people. And then we were there for another few hours before it was clear nobody was going to start any shit. So they did. Cunts I tell ya.


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09-04-2013, 05:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013, 05:13 PM by ken66.)
(09-04-2013, 04:05 PM)Keith Wrote: Ken - to imply that Thatch and her policies was the only alternative to that is like stating that Hitler was good for Germany in 1933 because the country was in the shitter and only he could get it out. First part is definitely true, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the 'solution' was the best one possible either.

All it means is conditions were ideal for a complete cunt to take over. Yes she did some things which had the desired - even desirable - effect, although it's still arguable about whether her policies made things better or merely differently screwed, but the social and societal implications of her methods have been profoundly damaging to British society, business and politics for generations and that will be her true legacy.

English middle-class apologists who were probably barely touched by, or even benefited from her policies notwithstanding.

I agree about politicians in general and I hold no political affiliation, however, I am of the view that the blame for British society today, lays not entirely with politicians, past or present, but more with the British people. Those 'working class' people that haven't worked for 5 years, 10 years or even ever in their life. Those people that do work, only to do as little as possible to get through the day. It is a rare person that puts 100% in to their work yet, we still expect to be paid 100% at the end of the month. (cig breaks, making a coffee, having a chat, texting friends, visiting forums to discuss how bored we are at work, etc.)

Everyone always wants to know what they can get for nothing. They complain about the NHS for example, but my recent illness in France cost me in the region of 300€ for blood tests and scans alone.

And there are those whom blame governments for everyone being in debt due to using credit cards. Surely that is down to personal greed and peer pressure purchasing.

I'm sure we could all debate this forever and probably never agree, but it would be a dull world if we all agreed. Wink
Trying to build a successful team, Berwick by Berwick
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09-04-2013, 05:49 PM
I don't think there's any question that something needed to be done to sort the country out.

But, I also feel that she just went too far. Way too far. Anyone with any hint of decency would surely question policies that were going to, quite literally, ruin the lives of millions. The big unions needed to be brought in check, but to entirely crush the industries they were linked to was a massive over reaction.

I also dislike the ethos of individualism over society, of look after number one rather than working together, and of greed is good rather than a living wage for all. She cemented that ethos and it's corrupted our society. It's the reason low paid workers no longer take pride in what they do and it's reason an increasing proportion of wealth is held by an increasingly small portion of society.

Under Thatcher the poor got genuinely poorer (world wars notwithstanding) for the first time in a century. I think that says all you need to know about why the mere mention of her incites so much anger.

Love/hate just depends how you/your family/your area was affected and where your social conscience lies. Personally, I think my family probably benefited from her policies, as my Dad was a commuter who worked in London, so I don't have real emotional dislike for her, but it nags at my conscience - it seems wrong and on a social level I feel as if the country moved in the wrong direction.

People no longer look out for each other, they just look after themselves. That seems wrong and Thatcher's policies are the route cause of that.
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09-04-2013, 05:56 PM
Who complains about the NHS? Are they complaining about its existence or in how it's run? Two completely different things. Ask people if they would like to see no NHS at all and the answer, I suspect, would be overwhelmingly negative. Ask if it needs reform, however, and most sensible people would agree. There is no dichotomy there.

People are cunts too, I agree. Not individual persons; they can be fine. But collective 'people' are just dumb fucks. That doesn't excuse the people in power for what they do though. Again, no dichotomy there. We all have a responsibility it's true, but Government have the greater one because their decisions affect a shit-whole lot more people. Government creates the conditions in which the people can make their dumb decisions, and can also limit the shit in which they get themselves when they inevitably make those dumb decisions. Thatcher's government preyed on the basest greed of people and hugely profited in the short-term, but created a generational, institutional deep wound in the process.

And let's just touch on the jobs issue briefly. From a 'big picture' anthropological perspective, unusually. When you have a poorly educated population, low skilled (through no fault of their own - exceptions aside - but due to the education system itself) and no industry in which to train them, and their only options are menial, service driven, soul-sapping drudge work, for a low-wage, for a mega-rich conglomerate whose services and 'product' you couldn't give a flying fuck for, what's the motivation? Where are the opportunities for those who don't have access to capital, or are even aware there might be avenues besides the one proscribed to them by their teachers, career officers and society in general to get a job. Any job. Be miserable. That's the life assigned to you. Lump it.

It's easy to say it doesn't have to be like that, and I know it and had a mini-career in youth work to try to pass on that message to those just entering that world, but the reality for many is it is that bleak and uninspiring. And there are not enough of even those shit-awful jobs to go around even then. So you have people failing to get a job they thought they were too good for in the first place - or getting 'let go' from same. Downward spiral. Collectively, socially.

That's why many see this Tory 'austerity' plan as false short-termism thinking. We'll arguably have less debt, but our country will be in no position to make a recovery if there's no investment in the future. An investment which is desperately needed, because without it, there'll only be more unemployment, more people who can wrongly be called scroungers... maybe even you.


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09-04-2013, 06:38 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013, 06:43 PM by ken66.)
It's interesting that the most hateful towards Thatcher are in areas of coal mines, shipbuilding etc., jobs that were miserable, yet they did out of pride to provide for their families. It has not always been about getting the perfect job. I am 47, unskilled and have obviously been through several different governments, yet I have only had maybe 12 months unemployment in that time. There are jobs for those who want them. If everybody wanted a job then there would be a problem, but luckily that's not the case.

I agree Chris, that there should be more of a societal ethos, but unfortunately it only manifests itself for selfish reasons. I don't want to 'pay' for having a spare bedroom and denying it to a family that may need it more. I say 'pay' because it comes out of benefits not wages. If you told benefit frauds that they had to work for their money, cleaning streets, communal gardening, painting graffiti, etc, I wonder how many would suddenly find better jobs.

You have to take personal pride before you can help a community/society. Trying to get what you can for free from the government doesn't help society or country.

I'm sorry if this is all over the place but my daughter is jumping all over me as I type Smile
Trying to build a successful team, Berwick by Berwick
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09-04-2013, 06:58 PM
Ken, it sounds like you're blaming unemployment on the unemployed... While that may be true of some, it's just not true that there are jobs for everyone if they just wanted them. The loss of the manufacturing industry, the coal industry, the steel industry and so on is not imaginary. They're gone and there are consequences. As is falling standards and opportunities in education. Unemployment being one. Social ennui being another.

Government creates the conditions in which a society can thrive or fester. You can't tell me this country is in the shitter because of its feckless people and not its government(s). Surely? Even those suckered into that stupid (sorry), false us-and-them/workers-scroungers mentality can't really believe that.


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09-04-2013, 07:11 PM
I'm with Will McBeard, bennytee et al.

I despised the woman, and hate the politics she popularised so much, and I have suffered a great deal personally because of Thatcherism… but I refuse to celebrate a person's death.

I will absolutely celebrate the death of Thatcherism, but when Ed Milliband and Nick Clegg represent our "left," I fear I won't live to see the day.

What I do find funny, however, is that right-wingers who celebrated the deaths of Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il and Hugo Chavez (who did FANTASTIC things for his country) are now totally against celebrating a person's death.

Quote:A grim, jaw-set "good, I'm glad" gut reaction

Exactly the words I wasn't eloquent enough to write.

Quote:It's interesting that the most hateful towards Thatcher are in areas of coal mines, shipbuilding etc., jobs that were miserable, yet they did out of pride to provide for their families. It has not always been about getting the perfect job. I am 47, unskilled and have obviously been through several different governments, yet I have only had maybe 12 months unemployment in that time. There are jobs for those who want them. If everybody wanted a job then there would be a problem, but luckily that's not the case.

I agree Chris, that there should be more of a societal ethos, but unfortunately it only manifests itself for selfish reasons. I don't want to 'pay' for having a spare bedroom and denying it to a family that may need it more. I say 'pay' because it comes out of benefits not wages. If you told benefit frauds that they had to work for their money, cleaning streets, communal gardening, painting graffiti, etc, I wonder how many would suddenly find better jobs.

You have to take personal pride before you can help a community/society. Trying to get what you can for free from the government doesn't help society or country.

I'm sorry if this is all over the place but my daughter is jumping all over me as I type

I don't think it's true that there are jobs for those who want them, I really don't.

I doubt my circumstances leading up to my unemployment will be shared by even one other person in this country, but I find it impossible to find work in Cambridgeshire. At this point I would literally do anything to earn an honest buck.

I had to travel five hours a day for my last job, and as it was commission only, I was losing money even on a good day. I don't even dare calculate how much I lost at the time because it would likely send me over the age.

Out of over 400 applications in just three months, it was the only offer I received. I lost count of the amount of times I was told I was overqualified for cleaning, warehouse work, retail, admin… and underqualified for the sector I have experience and education in.

One entry-level £10,000 a year job I applied for, I was, I quote "nailed on for the job spec."

But they had applicants from nearly seventy different countries, most of which had never even set foot on British soil. One had a PhD and two MSc's, for that one £10,000 a year job. How do you compete with that?

I also think it's slightly questionable to talk about benefit fraudsters, as if they're a blight on society. Benefit fraud accounts for just 0.7% of a welfare budget of which 97% is spent on people in work. Work doesn't pay, and as long as thousands are forced to work for Tesco, Poundland et al for the grand price of fuck all, jobs will disappear like nothing else on Earth.
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09-04-2013, 08:20 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013, 08:40 PM by Soulfusion.)
She was definitely a divisive woman who, after more than twenty years since being forced out of Downing Street remains a love her or loathe her character. I was at school until '82 so don't recall the economic mess of the '70s; brought up by parents in a Shire county who have always owned their own home, have been fortunate to have always been in employment and have always owned my own property since the mid Eighties. Nevertheless I have always loathed the woman, her political ideology, destroyer of communities and creator of the 'I'm all right Jack Loadsamoney' society, and the Tory sycophants that have followed her since.

She allowed the manufacturing industry in this country to collapse simply to break the Unions and Britain have gone on to become a 'service' industry country. We are a nation built on coal yet are dependent on Russian gas and French nuclear energy companies Go figure. Yet the coal mining towns of Yorkshire and South Wales remain ghost towns with no industry to support the people that live there nearly thirty years after the colleries closed. And then they wonder why so many 'rely' on the welfare state.

I had considered applying to become a police officer after leaving school but the way the police were used, as a political force, during the Miners strike turned me off that career path. Myself and two mates were going to NEC to see George Benson and we had only just got past the M50 junction of the M5 when we were stopped. I had a battered old Escort at the time which shook at 60 mph so were never breaking the limit. Clearly it was assumed that we were flying pickets heading from South Wales.

The real disappointment for me though occured in 1997 though when , after finally getting rid of the Tories... we got more of the same from Labour albeit with a social conscience so I understand exactly where Keith is coming from about politicians. The lesson that I have learned in life is that regardless of who is in government the middle majority of the country will always be squeezed.

When I studied A level history a popular question was Explain how German Unification in the 1870's led to the rise of Hitler and the Second World War. A question for this generation would be Explain how the election of Thatcher in 1979 led to the Banks collapse in 2007.

The real culprits are the Argies. Had they not invaded the Falklands in '82 the Tories would have lost the election in '83.
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09-04-2013, 08:40 PM
I'm not sure this would be a good idea.
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09-04-2013, 08:43 PM
Not certain that many football fans would support that. The Thatcher government believed that football fans were only slight above neandathals in the evolutionary scale!l
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09-04-2013, 08:56 PM
To be fair, they're not far wrong.


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09-04-2013, 09:35 PM
(09-04-2013, 08:40 PM)keefa Wrote: I'm not sure this would be a good idea.

I would scream and holler as loud as I could from first whistle to last.
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09-04-2013, 09:37 PM
(09-04-2013, 09:35 PM)Daedalus Wrote:
(09-04-2013, 08:40 PM)keefa Wrote: I'm not sure this would be a good idea.

I would scream and holler as loud as I could from first whistle to last.

And that's why people think football fans are neanderthals.
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09-04-2013, 09:41 PM
I think any crowd almost anywhere, even away from football, would have people shouting through a minute's silence for her.

Not saying I condone that, but that many people really hate her that it just wouldn't work.
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09-04-2013, 09:57 PM
Agreed.

They're giving some of the reactions on 5Live now from the Cardiff game - some say it's a good idea, but the consensus is that it wouldn't be. At all. "Very loud booing" would be the reaction, one guy says.

And as Chris says, I think we may find the same regardless of the crowd. Her funeral will be interesting...


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