Additional Llama Guidelines Discussion
#1
22-12-2013, 10:11 PM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2013, 10:14 PM by kin_lin.)
New thread for discussion of additional Llama guidelines as per PM between SackedLlama and myself. Just to make it easy to have all the discussions about additional Llama guidelines in one handy spot for later referencing.

(20-12-2013, 01:19 PM)kin_lin Wrote:
(17-12-2013, 10:48 AM)SackedLlaMa Wrote: Thanks! I'm definitely using that from now on. Any chance we can copy that to our new guidelines thread?

Done

(20-12-2013, 12:42 PM)SackedLlaMa Wrote: Beautiful, kin_lin! I've just started using those guidelines for local scouting, and it makes the game more realistic, and therefore a lot more entertaining. I'm testing some guidelines of my own at the moment, but I think I want to get a full season, or at least a decent amount of games, under my belt before posting them.

Fully agree that they certainly make the game more realistic at the semi-pro level clubs and more enjoyable to play.

I am finding with FM14 I am not using the transfer gossip, "wanted" or "contract offered", or "on trial" with BSS/BSN clubs within 1 hours drive guidelines as the new scouting process in FM14 seems to be finding plenty of recruitment candidates anyway.

(22-12-2013, 05:45 PM)SackedLlaMa Wrote: Regarding the "Additional Guidelines"-discussion-thread-thingy (for those who are still interested in that), I was thinking about a standardized format which would keep the additional guidelines easy to find and easy to read and came up with this:

What? Explanation of what the additional guideline is.

How? How to implement the additional guideline in the game.

Why? Background for why you think this is a good guideline which makes the game more fun, realistic or whatever else you're aiming for.

Exceptions: List of all exceptions to the guideline.


To give you an example, here's one of my additional guidelines which I'm currently testing.


What? No signing of new players in the first transfer window at your new club.

How? Everytime you feel the urge to sign someone, slap yourself silly.

Why? This is to stop myself from doing two things;
1) signing a bunch of new players immediately after arriving at a new club (which I haven't seen before in real life except for when Chelski bought Chelski Chelsea), and 2) getting rid of a bunch of players who never got the opportunity to fight for a spot on my team. With this rule I'm limited to utilizing whoever is at the club, and to give everyone a fair chance at making the team.

Exceptions: 1) If you find yourself at a club with only 1 or no goalie in the entire system (first team, reserves and youth team) you're allowed to sign a backup; or if you have no goalie at all, one starter and a back-up. 2) If you take over a club during the season, you're allowed to sign players in the upcoming transfer window.


Any thoughts?
And where should this discussion take place?

(22-12-2013, 10:11 PM)DomD Wrote: Interesting idea SackedLlama. In my most recent save I checked the box for no transfer budgets in the first window. I does prevent an unrealistic amount of moves in that first window, but it does look strange to see that all the leagues have zero spent on transfers.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since Football Manager on Commodore 64!

GNU Terry Pratchett
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#2
22-12-2013, 11:33 PM
And by unrealistic amount of moves in the first window, I mean in addition to the real life moves that have already happened.
FM14: SV 07 Elversberg - 2013/14 (Season 1) - 3. Liga (Germany)
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#3
22-12-2013, 11:49 PM
Yeah, absolutely, that's a good point. My initial thought, and kind of what made me start using, or at least testing this guideline, was that since the game is already updated with the 'deadline day squads', whichever club I end up with are done shopping for the summer. Maybe I should start checking that box after all.. How do you like using it?
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Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
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#4
22-12-2013, 11:53 PM
It is a little strange, because they set all transfer budgets to 0 and I think all the wage budgets are maxed out. So even if in real life the team didn't use all of the money available to them there is no money left. Obviously you can go a bit over your budget, so each league history now only shows a bunch of free and loan signings for that first window.
FM14: SV 07 Elversberg - 2013/14 (Season 1) - 3. Liga (Germany)
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#5
23-12-2013, 12:07 AM
Oh, that sounds like a bad solution by SI.. Sounds more like an arcade-type challenge than a realistic approach.. Think I'll stay away from that then...
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Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
Previous saves: 
The Quest for Working Undersoil Heating
What I Learned at the JD Academy

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#6
23-12-2013, 02:35 PM
Ok, the next two additional guidelines are not for everyone. First of all it makes getting through pre-season (and the rest of the season really...) very time consuming, so if you like to fly through the seasons, this is probably not for you. If you only use one of the two listed below, the season and matches will go by quicker, but it's when you use both together that you'll experience, in my opinion, a very realistic approach to the game, though very challenging and frustrating at times (especially when you're not used to them yet).

The whole idea is to judge players, formation, tactics, roles etc, not on a players attributes, but on their performance. That means trying out different players in different positions, formations and roles until you find something that works. It means looking at stats like average ratings, completed passes etc to judge their performance. And as mentioned, this is time consuming! So, here goes:


#1

What? Attribute masking of ALL players, even my own.

How? Go into a player screen at the start of the game and change the attributes window to Biography. After that every player screen you enter should show the Biography in stead of any attributes. Just beware of the Player instructions screen where I don't think you can hide a players attributes sadly. So, good old fashioned self control is needed!

Why? Players in real life don't have numbers that tell you exactly how good they are in different areas. The staff already there can give you some information on the players (best corner takers etc) and they do, in the staff meetings.

When I arrive at a new club that I know nothing about, with players I've never heard of, I don't want to be in a position where I can spend 10 minutes looking at some numbers and immediately know who's gonna start and who I need to sell. So, I remove all attributes. Players need to perform in pre-season and regular season games, and that performance is what they'll be judge on. They have to be tested in different positions and roles. And then, based on the information I gather from all that, I can select a regular starting XI and dump someone if they're not good enough. This also means I might be selling the best player at the club because he's not performing, but so be it. I think that's a realistic option since my judgement of talent and potential isn't exactly world class.


#2

"So", you might be thinking, "fine, I can live without attributes, because I have an assistant manager." No, I don't.

What? No Assisstant Manager

How? Don't hire one. Or, if there already is an ass.man at your new club, offer him mutual termination (which he will accept on Day 1) before you have the ass.man meeting or look at the squad.

Why? Here's what your ass.man can do for you in FM (at least 13 and 14):
- Tell you which formation suits your team (so you have a formation to use)
- Tell you which players are the best in the squad and what roles and positions they are best at (so you have a starting XI + reserves)
- What their potential is like/if they're ever going to be useful (so you know who to keep and who to sell)
- Hold press conferences for you
- Set the opposition instructions (or whatever they're called) for you
- Handle the team talk (before, during and after the game)
- Tell you what changes to make during the game (so you don't have to pay attention really)

Now, I'm not saying that I used to let my ass.man do everything, but it made me stop and wonder; 'hang on a minute, why am I here? They could easily manage without me...'

So, I play without an ass.man, at least in the lower leagues. This forces me to take care of formations, tactics, figuring out who to play (without attributes and without ass.man reports), hold press conferences, set the opposition instructions and handle all team talks. Basically, I have to do all the work, and that's how I prefer it.


As I said at the beginning, playing with these two additional guidelines is very time consuming and demands a lot of effort on your part. Not only do you have to test different tactics, roles and formations, which means usually watching full games, even friendlies, to see how they work and make adjustments, but you also have to give everyone a chance, and judge them on performance, completed passes and stats like that because you don't have any attributes to look at.

Personally, I love playing with these two guidelines! Wub (<-- LOOK HOW MUCH I LOVE THEM!!!)
-------------------------------
Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
Previous saves: 
The Quest for Working Undersoil Heating
What I Learned at the JD Academy

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#7
24-12-2013, 12:44 AM
The idea of LLM as I understand it, is to play the game as realistically as the game allows. That being said, I find it unrealistic to not have an assistant manager.

Does anyone else have a view on this?
Trying to build a successful team, Berwick by Berwick
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#8
24-12-2013, 12:46 AM
That was my initial thought, Ken. Just because my AssMan advises me on what to do doesn't mean I take it as gospel. I'm in charge and make the final decisions.
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#9
24-12-2013, 12:51 AM
Same as that. For me, the AssMan tells me what the game can't show me, things I would see irl. Also, as a manager with no previous experience, I would rely quite heavily on an experienced hand as an AssMan.
WAWAW

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#10
24-12-2013, 01:00 AM
That was what I thought.

I mean, if you come into a new club, your assistant is obviously going to recommend ways of getting your team to play to meet their strengths.
(15-02-2018, 10:50 PM)Rodderas Wrote: Maybe this upset the team? Fucked if I know.



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#11
24-12-2013, 02:50 AM
As I usually end with shitty assistant managers they are hired to run reserve squad or to make me laugh with his advices. I could survive without one but am not going to pursuit that path. No transfers in first window when starting new save sound good but I would like to force every team to follow it and not just my own (don't know if that is possible). But every man for himself, play it in the way you enjoy. Smile
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#12
24-12-2013, 03:51 AM
I agree - every man to his own.

At a club with piss all money I would imagine it would be fine to be the sole manager rather than waste your precious money on someone who is hopeless anyway. You'd probably end up relying on players' parents to help you pick up the cones Mrgreen

Currently managing: Kazincbarcika Sports Club, Hungarian Division I
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#13
26-12-2013, 11:59 AM
(24-12-2013, 12:44 AM)ken66 Wrote: The idea of LLM as I understand it, is to play the game as realistically as the game allows. That being said, I find it unrealistic to not have an assistant manager.

Does anyone else have a view on this?

(24-12-2013, 03:51 AM)f1dave Wrote: At a club with piss all money I would imagine it would be fine to be the sole manager rather than waste your precious money on someone who is hopeless anyway. You'd probably end up relying on players' parents to help you pick up the cones Mrgreen

I don't think NOT hiring an ass.man at a tiny club with financial issues is so far fetched that it's not realistic. Whether a club calls it 1 manager and 2 coaches, or 1 manager, 1 ass.man and 1 coach doesn't really matter much in the lower leagues? I don't really agree with the argument that you should always have an ass.man because it's more realistic. As a manager you have the staff that you need to succeed.

Secondly, because the post with the two guidelines was so long I kind of shortened the whole background for the guideline part, so let me explain it a little bit better.

The reason I came up with the "no ass.man" guideline was an FM save that I started but got bored of as soon as I hired an ass.man. I was at a tiny club with very little resources and as usual I put an ad up for a new ass.man. It took quite a while before I got any replies at all, and even longer before I actually hired someone, so in that period I was on my own with very little time before the start of the season. So I had to manage without any ass.man reports, any tactical advice etc. which forced me to evaluate the team and tactics all on my own (and without any player attributes remember). I had to watch the few friendlies I had time for, the entire 90 minutes. I took notes on how we played, how we changed when I made minor tweaks, players, their stats (passing, shots etc), their rating, how they responded when moved from one position to another, switched from one role to another and so on. During games I had to make all the tactical changes as there was no ass.man to give me hints or tips.

It was the longest pre-season I've ever played, and I was probably complete rubbish when it came to figuring everything out and finding my best XI. But it was also the most realistic pre-season experience I've ever had, and the most entertaining. I actually had to pay attention, figure out who was good and who was terrible in a few games because I had no ass.man or any attributes to rely on. And I had to let everyone get a chance of impressing me and everyone was fighting for a spot (usually the ass.man would've told me already who was better and who was complete rubbish, so there wouldn't really have been much competition).

Then, I finally hired an ass.man and the save was ruined. I was a couple of games in when the ass.man arrived and I decided to check out the ass.man reports (habit). Bad idea. I saw who the best players at the club were, what roles and positions they should play, and that midfielder who had been about average during pre-season, like everyone else really, but I thought had a bright future, turned out to be worthless garbage with no potential that I should sell right away (obviously I didn't have to listen to the ass.man, but who knows better? Me or the computer AI? And I would always know that that midfielder would most likely not turn into anything so playing him and trying to make him succeed was futile). Basically, it felt like I had just installed a help program which corrected everything I was doing wrong up to that point. It felt like a clear move away from the realism I had experienced during the pre-season, and as I said, it ruined the save and I started over again. This time with the "no ass.man" guideline in place.

So, you can say it's a bit unrealistic to not have an ass.man, something I don't necessarily agree with you on (we're just talking about the lower leagues here..), but in that case it's sacrificing a small amount of realism to gain a huge amount of realism, if that makes sense.

Sorry about the length of the post again, but also thank you guys for your feedback. This is why we have this thread, to discuss. I've just started using the "no ass.man" guideline so I'm still testing, but so far I love it and would recommend it. At least try it out so that you understand what I'm talking about.
-------------------------------
Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
Previous saves: 
The Quest for Working Undersoil Heating
What I Learned at the JD Academy

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#14
26-12-2013, 12:48 PM
I read the suggestions with interest and have thought about them for the last couple of days. I don't think they quite work for me (though I completely accept your reasons for doing it) for one main reason (unless I've missed a big part of FM!) - you can't watch training. In training, if I were a manager, I would set up various situations. Like an ST going one-on-one with a GK. I would be able to watch, say, 30minutes of my players in that situation, and be able to judge their first touch, dribbling, composure, positioning etc even without the numbers. I'd also get a feel for any improvement. I can't see that (and I really wish I could). If watching training were possible then the numbers are almost irrelevant.
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#15
26-12-2013, 01:24 PM
(26-12-2013, 12:48 PM)The Good Doctor Wrote: I read the suggestions with interest and have thought about them for the last couple of days. I don't think they quite work for me (though I completely accept your reasons for doing it) for one main reason (unless I've missed a big part of FM!) - you can't watch training. In training, if I were a manager, I would set up various situations. Like an ST going one-on-one with a GK. I would be able to watch, say, 30minutes of my players in that situation, and be able to judge their first touch, dribbling, composure, positioning etc even without the numbers. I'd also get a feel for any improvement. I can't see that (and I really wish I could). If watching training were possible then the numbers are almost irrelevant.

I agree and I wish you could set up and watch training because it would really help when using these guidelines. But I still think that there would be a difference between watching training and seeing the actual number for any attribute. You could probably guestimate a passing attribute, but it wouldn't be as accurate as actually seeing the number, and in some cases I think you could be wrong about attributes as well, especially with today's 3D graphics engine...

Anyway, since you can't watch your players in training, I set up friendlies with my reserve team to watch as many of my players in action at once, I try to judge them in different match situations during the game, and I study stats (which there are a lot of in FM now). That's the closest I can get to evaluating. It's not as good as a training function would be, but it's the best I can do within the limits of the game. I still miss a better training option (I think it's worse now than before when you could make your own schedules and actually see the progress), but I still find it a lot more challenging and fun to play without attributes than with them. There's no harm in testing is there? Smile
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Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
Previous saves: 
The Quest for Working Undersoil Heating
What I Learned at the JD Academy

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#16
26-03-2014, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2014, 10:50 PM by brummied.)
When players wont sign for me I very rarely bother to read what's in the voice balloon, just see the red colour and move on. I just read one and the player turned me down and his reason was "didn't want to relocate for that money" - maybe FM have started to institute local scouting principles.

This is FM14 and I'm playing as Varmbol in First Division North, Sweden - the offer was about 60GBP a week part-time
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#17
26-03-2014, 10:39 PM
That's a nice touch Thup
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#18
10-05-2014, 01:45 PM
So, before going back to FM11 and Fram Larvik, I did have a go at FM14 with some additional guidelines. This was not going to be a long career, but I thought it was important to at least finish 1-2 seasons to properly experiment.

Two guidelines that I don't need to reflect on really is the 'local scouting' and 'no signing of players in the first transfer window'. The 'local scouting' that I learned about on this forum works really well and I love playing with it. It makes the experience a lot more realistic and challenging in my opinion. The 'no signing of players in the first transfer window' is just a choice on my part. The rosters are the deadline day rosters meaning all clubs are done shopping when I arrive. Also it prevents me going out and replacing the entire team in one transfer window and forces me to get the most out of the players already there.

I also tested two new guidelines that I haven't seen anyone else test, so here's a (hopefully) short reflection on these guidelines and explanation of them:

1. The No Ass.Man rule

My thought process behind this rule was that since the ass.man can handle team talks, find you the best tactics and formations, tell you which players are the best in your squad, who has a future and who doesn't, handle press conferences etc etc, I felt that I was becoming a bit redundant. So, I played two seasons without an ass.man, and here's my conclusion;

I needed to play two seasons without an ass.man. It forced me to handle everything myself (team talks, formations, team selection etc) which made the whole experience more realistic and fun. But, and this is a big but; I don't want to make this a rule.

First of all having an ass.man may be more realistic than not having one, at least having an assistant is more realistic no matter what title you give him. Secondly, and this was a point made by some of you; the ass.men in the lower leagues are crap. I needed to play without one for a couple of seasons simply to take more control of my club and not let my ass.man do everything. And since the ass.man is crap I should definitely not let him do everything!

So this guideline is to be used when you feel like you let your ass.man run your club, but other than that, hire one and use him sparingly (or he'll probably run your club into the ground Mrgreen )

2. Hide all attributes of all players, even my own
(Exception: Staff)
Now, this one I love.

Basically, the idea is that as soon as the game starts up you go to your team, click on one of your players and select to see the biography in the window where the attributes are usually shown. Do that once, and the attributes of all players from there on are hidden (only their biography is shown).

The point of this is that when I arrive at a new club I shouldn't be able to take one look at a players attributes and decide whether he's good or not, or if he'll become good in 3-4 years time or not. It usually takes more than 5 minutes and an ass.man report to figure that out. In stead what I had to do was set up a bunch of friendlies (but you do that anyway in pre-season), give everyone an equal chance to play and choose the guys who had performed well. Over the course of a season the best players would separate themselves from the poor players, and you would know who to keep next year and who to replace.

Still to this day I don't know if I sold an underachieving superstar in the making and signed a long term deal with an overachieving talentless benchwarmer. And I don't want to know. Managers don't know in real life. They can usually judge if a player has talent or not, and I think I can see that in their performance at different ages (an 18-year old who can't get above an 5.5 overall rating every time he gets a chance to play, may not be your strongest talent. A 16-year old who actually looks good when you sub him in may be).

This way I at least felt it was more realistic in that if a player performed, he got a new contract because he deserved one. It had nothing to do with my ass.mans opinion on he's potential or ability or that I liked or disliked certain attributes. If you played well, you were rewarded. And I think that's how it usually works in real life as well.

Now, a problem that the Good Doctor pointed out, is that you can't watch training so you can't evaluate certain aspects of a players game. I thought this was going to be a problem, but to be honest, you're just playing FM in the normal way except you pick your team based on performance, not attributes. I never thought during the two seasons I used for experimentation that I wanted to see players in training, so to me at least that wasn't a big issue.

Anyway, I loved playing with this guideline and before you reject it I would recommend you try it out, just for a season to see if you like it. You might Smile
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Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
Previous saves: 
The Quest for Working Undersoil Heating
What I Learned at the JD Academy

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#19
10-05-2014, 02:47 PM
I might give that a go with my next club. I mean I like to delegate a lot of my duties so it'd probably benefit me. I already know my club well enough not to be able to do that at present though.
(15-02-2018, 10:50 PM)Rodderas Wrote: Maybe this upset the team? Fucked if I know.



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#20
10-05-2014, 03:03 PM
(10-05-2014, 02:47 PM)JD95 Wrote: I might give that a go with my next club. I mean I like to delegate a lot of my duties so it'd probably benefit me. I already know my club well enough not to be able to do that at present though.

Yeah, it should be done at a new club you know nothing about to get the full experience, me thinks. And if you can do without ass.man reports the first couple of months as well, that's preferable.
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Currently mismanaging: Newington Youth
Previous saves: 
The Quest for Working Undersoil Heating
What I Learned at the JD Academy

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